This is going to be a large entry, so if you’re up for it, get comfortable.
Anyway, for the last few weeks, the debate about homosexuality has come up a few times in my journal, and I figure if it’s going to keep coming up I may as well give it its own entry, and leave it open to anyone who cares to comment. This entry contains every single portion of an entry that dealt with homosexuality and the comments that were part of them. Enjoy.
“…First off, the gay marriage thing. Each time I see a couple from Maryland get their marriage licence, it gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I’m not against legally two people who want to do something like (not, however) getting into a same-sex “marriage” to enjoy the benefits of inheritance taxes and the like, but please keep it away from the moral binds of marriage. I’m sorry, but it seems crazy for me to think that two women or two men can see themselves so justly endowed to the same things ethically as my parents are. They’re not. However, I still believe this isn’t something that the national government should put an amendment on. I just feel like that’s going too far. I mean, I’m sure they could find something in the interstate commerce clause to make it justified, but I can’t see it. Keep it as a state issue, and let it work it’s way one way or the other. I just feel in the end it’s going to tear at the very moral fibers of our nation. This isn’t a small thing.”
I recived this anonymous comment:
“i don’t get why ppl are gay. i mean fags are so gross. it should be illegal to be a fag. i hope goerge bush makes that amendment thingie so fags cant have sex. they deserve it i mean God made us nongay so we should respect that. all gayz should die.”
I was really bothered by that comment, so I felt it best to state my position:
For the record, after get a slightly unnerving comment today from my politics post, I want to clarify my position about the gay rights issue.
First, at least spell the president’s name right. Secondly, and more to the point, I find the way some of the moral majority and right wing members of America are treating this homosexuality issue is repulsive, and in no way I feel a true reelection of the gospel. As far as I’ve ever been raised God does NOT hate “fags”. God would never use such a term to describe a piece of His loving handiwork. All homosexuality is as far as the Bible’s ever seemed to be concerned with is a sin, just how lying and stealing and killing is. Sin is Greek for “missing the mark” – failing to meet God’s standards. I also like the definition of sin as the absence of God (If God=perfect good, and Sin=bad, God can’t directly be a cause of sin. He’s always there, but if an individual makes a conscious choice to not have him in his life, well, then; he’s not gonna stop you). Anyways, I feel it’s a sin, yes. I don’t think that any person is born gay, just as I don’t know if anyone is born to steal. A little, little bit nature and A LOT of nurture. But I think God loves the person. And if God loves the person, so will I. If someone steals my car and I meet them, I might not be happy, but I certainly won’t hate them, nor will I tell them repeatedly they’re going to hell – what good does that do to show him the glories of God? None.
I don’t know. As much as I got sick watching gay and lesbian couples wed, it was compounded a lot by the so-called Christians putting up picket signs. You know what, folks? If you want to do the Lord’s work, put down your stupid signs and meet these people. All you’re doing is hiding.”
Here’s the most recent debate on the whole issue:
“…The Kerry/Edwards duo is about as harmless and blank as a cup of milk. They stand for what everyone else does, and what I don’t agree with isn’t going to be changed (social issues and the like… ex: people wouldn’t stand for a total legalization of gay and lesbian marriages)
I just fear GWB’s policies are so unilateral they’ve displaced us from the global community. Maybe it’s the news spin, but that’s the way I feel. I want a few years where America is trying to buddy-buddy up to everyone. The way the global economy is headed, we need many friends.”
The following debate in the comments are from Charlie, my good friend since elementary school and a liberal; my good friend Russell from Grove City, a staunch conservative; and me, fairly much conservative with liberal tendencies:
“Don’t be so sure about the whole “people wouldn’t stand gay marriage thing”. Check out this comic (warning: the owner of that journal is more liberal than I. At least, more angry of a liberal than I). In the end, people really don’t care about others’ business and happiness, so long as it doesn’t effect them.”
“Well, there’s news. We’re not a democracy. We’re a republic. Duh. Anywho, I have an opinion, and being the evil conservative that I am, I must express it.
First, FEW people in secondary school have an educated opinion about much of anything. They just form one so they look more important. A trait common amongst teenagers, and pretty much anybody (present company included).
Second, the opinion that morality isn’t other people’s business is of course, retarded. Just about everything we do affects everybody around us. We’re constructing moral values in our society to pass on to future generations whether we like it or not. It’d be nice to lock ourselves in a little box and say “I’m not hurting anybody, so I can do what I want” but it just doesn’t work that way. We’re just a giant community, and we need to watch out for each other and help each other out because we’ll have to be living with each other for quite some time, like it or not. I guess what I’m saying is, if you have two buns, don’t just eat ’em because it’s not hurting anybody. Share ’em, and help somebody…”
“A) Democratic Republic.
B) I have a tendency to agree that chances are these students aren’t quite sure what what’s going on. After all, when I was in 8th grade and we had a mock election, Ross Perot won by a landslide. And while I agree about teenagers, I don’t know if I’d go as far as to say pretty much anybody. The people who are defining success in our generation are those who are willing to strike out on their own opinions. The difference isn’t that most people don’t develop their own opinion; the difference is that most people are unwilling to stand up to them in the heat of criticism…
Anyway, that’s the middle of the road view. :)”
“My use of the word democracy was an honest mistake, and one that you made as well, as Adam pointed out.
Hmm… I never mentioned any sort of blanket morality in my post, nor my own beliefs about morality. I am not certain exactly what opinion you are calling “retarded”. What I said was that society, in general, allows other to pursue happiness so long the pursuit doesn’t directly affect them. I’ll admit this argument was flawed (recreational drugs is one example where this is not the case. However, society does allow alcohol consumption, so… *shrugs* It seems to be hit and miss), however I do believe that it is applicable in the case of gay marriage. The reason for my belief is this: Homosexuality has come much more into the open recently. It is now pretty much an accepted way of living. People hardly blink an eye at it. I don’t see too many people denouncing “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy”. How many stars have “come out of the closet” without a loss in popularity? A kid I know recently did, and received little but overwhelming support for his decision. The next step that society will take will be allowing these people the right to marriage.
I don’t exactly understand your bun example, especially as it pertains to gay marriage. Would you please elaborate?”
“Right. Honest mistakes all around (Apologies)
I did mean “Isn’t”, sorry ’bout that.
The bun example is from a song by “The Electrics” It’s pretty much just saying look out for your neighbor as well as yourself. Kinda saying “Just because you don’t think something’s not hurting anyone else, doesn’t mean you’re doing them any favors” or Do something to help, not just to avoid hurting someone. It’s kinda saying that, from my standpoint as a Christian (I know, stone me do death now) homosexuality isn’t a good thing, socially accepted or not. I mean, just because something’s popular doesn’t make it a good idea (remember slap bracelets? THOSE were a good idea, but that’s aside from the point)
And, as much as we in the Big Melting pot hate to admit it, there IS a blanket morality, and at the moment, the way I see it, it’s becoming more and more what you can get away with is just fine, rather than basing it on a standard (In my case, biblical teachings, but Torah, Koran, what have you). Homosexual marriage does seem like an inevitable step in the direction society’s going, and it may make a lot of people happy, but it’ll make just as many others unhappy (Hence, it’s not around yet), and how is it a good thing if one side gets what it wants when the other side (mine) makes another moral sacrifice?
Well, hopefully I cleared one or 2 things up, but I’m not much of a writer, I’m more of a reader. 😛
Signed, the Evil Conservative. (Buy more stuff!)”
“It’s kinda saying that, from my standpoint as a Christian (I know, stone me do death now) homosexuality isn’t a good thing, socially accepted or not.
Don’t worry, Charlie and I have been best friends all the way through elementary school. If he hasn’t stoned me yet for my stand on faith, he’ll let you go on yours 🙂
ACTUALLY, I think you both have met each other freshman year when I had a bunch of friends come to the talent show for MJ. Didn’t you go to Sun Gin with us that night?
And I agree with you, and I feel that this is what this debate is ultimately coming to: the morality of a nation when it allows practices that are immoral to other sects of the nation.
Charlie, the comic you linked to shows a progression that has happened in the US. And I agree that it’s happened. What I will say from a Biblical perspective is that God never judged on race in marriage – “Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight” is a line from a Sunday School chorus I sang. But, like we talked about before, God is quite adamant about how he felt about homosexuality, and sexual perversion beyond committed heterosexual sexual relationships. And so for me, while I see what it’s getting at, can’t completely agree with its ultimate message.
But, that being said, I still don’t agree with a constitutional amendment because that isn’t the place of our government – just how it isn’t the place of the government to disallow me to disagree with the ability to marry gays.
Love the person, hate the sin. It’s that fundamental.
I think I might make this its own entry. Then open it up to WHOMEVER.”
And that brings us up to now.
So please feel free even if you’re just skipping through to just leave a message if you feel inclined. It’s interesting to see so much debate and flurry about it (I hardly ever receive double digit comments on entries). Liberal, conservative, gay, straight, whatever. Please comment.
peace and love